在IMDB上面的论坛上，许多外国人讨论得很透彻。

2008-07-31 18:21:04 　　来自: cowboyD (武汉)
　　无意中瞄了一眼IMDB有关MCML（Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence）的影评，发现下面还有个影迷论坛，一点进去就是两个小时沉迷在各方大讨论中。
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085933/

因为是国际论坛，所以能看到不同国家影迷的评语很有趣。而且其他国家的影迷比我想象得要深刻得多（比起以前在国内论坛转载的美国影迷言论要deep多了，由此想到，唉，偶们国内论坛有很多国外言论都是经过刻意筛选的吧）

其中似乎是一个荷兰影迷，有原著，所以对影片中一些初看有些摸不着头脑的细节给出了解释。比如说，为什么西利亚斯会选择以亲吻作为对抗世野的方式，比如说，原著中世野的真正结局；起先的两个人，朝鲜兵和荷兰小伙究竟是什么关系；世野到底对西利亚斯是什么感情等等等等~

当然，还有一些花边消息，比如大包为什么没和坂本龙一合唱禁色~

在此偶就不翻译了~~各位还是去论坛看吧~~

呵呵，不得不再说一句，他们对电影的深入看法确实非常到位

你认为这篇讨论：有用 10 没用

2008-08-01 20:55:51 纯良豚 (此为马甲号。。)

　　荷兰影迷是哪段，求个直链

2008-08-03 16:45:25 cowboyD

　　http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085933/board/nest/83580099
　　
　　这里是主题帖啦~一共9个帖子讨论主人公之间的gayness....
　　
　　请从第一个帖子开始看这样比较知道来龙去脉~~
　　
　　如果要跳过前面讨论直接观赏荷兰影迷滴精彩回帖滴话请点击：
　　
　　http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085933/board/nest/83580099?d=85925724&p=1#85925724
　　
　　Okay~我已经在英国邮购了原著~~等着到手反复研究~(*^__^*) 嘻嘻……

2008-10-30 14:27:26 fashang (爱幻想的家伙，喜欢上帝的人)

　　给个翻译，

2008-12-07 21:53:02 NICCO (BD25爱好者)

　　IMDB上的主题才4页实在是少的有些可怜= =
　　
　　恩，看原著就对了，强烈期待LZ放出原著扫描版>_<

2008-12-10 10:03:31 zoma

　　荷兰的写的是很不错的，解释了之前很多的疑惑
　　这部太隐晦了，很多情节都要去原著找寻线索啊...

2008-12-21 23:26:21 cowboyD

　　汗了，扫描版我可以做到吧，试试看新年前放个几十页上来；但是翻译······虽然自认英文不错，哈里波特也许可以翻出来，但是这种过于深的文学作品，很多字里行间和隐晦的含义都摸不着头脑啊····
　　
　　各位暂且等等扫描版吧····几百页呢···

2008-12-24 22:00:14 秋小默

　　写得很好
　　但是我看得很累

2008-12-24 22:17:28 秋小默

　　我觉得豆瓣上小丁云的评论就可以满足我了

2009-02-07 17:09:24 NICCO (BD25爱好者)

　　过来祈祷扫描版的出现m(_ _)m

2009-02-12 22:11:04 lilylee

　　同求扫描版版

2009-02-20 10:49:41 cowboyD

　　我把原著复印了两本，一本已被Nicco同学预定~
　　
　　还有一本谁要？可以点击这个链接我好寄出去：http://item.taobao.com/auction/item_detail.jhtml?item_id=81c103471ee70eebd6a7221dc100947a&x_id=0db2#FreightList

2009-02-21 12:31:52 NICCO (BD25爱好者)

　　已拍下,再次拜谢了m(_ _)m
　　

2009-02-21 12:45:19 NICCO (BD25爱好者)

　　十三春的百度空间,可以看到三段翻译
　　http://hi.baidu.com/mahoroba

2009-03-29 09:39:54 妖精伤人 (莲花与尘)

　　版本龙一对大包有断臂情节是可以肯定的，而大包吻了龙一我认为是此前他回忆自己的青年时期有了忏悔，把这种情感释放到对战争完全被动的龙一身上，大包的弟弟在回忆中一直没长大，我想这是不是大包人格分裂造成的，他弟弟压根不存在。

2009-03-30 23:44:10 wantoread (要奋起！)

　　T.T 期待扫描版～～～～～～～～～
　　

2009-04-04 18:28:25 荷包鲤鱼 (要有光，要有诚)

　　I quite agree. And I can add a few points. Sorry for the bad English.
　　
　　I think Celliers, both in the book and the movie is quite an enigma both to his surroundings and sometimes even to himself. In the book he is a man who is imprisoned by the expectations that people, society has of him, also because of the looks that Yonoi is so fascinated of. The perfect son, student, lawer, soldier, potential husband. He tries to break out by going to war but he always remains aimless. In the book there is indeed some mutual attraction when Celliers and Yonoi see each other at court for the first time. Celliers describes it as "two birds of the same kind admiring each others beautiful feathers". The books also makes it quite clear (more than the movie, at least for non-Japanese who might not get the few hints Oshima is giving them about Yonoi's past) that Yonoi, too, is a prisoner of his society. He is supposed to be the perfect soldier, the prefect samurai, who acts without individuality and personal feelings. Both clearly have problems living up to these standards and both see something they admire in the other. But there is a misunderstanding.
　　
　　Yonoi sees something as a God in Cellier and misunderstands his indifference towards his own life as courage and samurai spirit, at the same time he is drawn to Celliers acting so much as an individual. And these IS a homoerotic attraction both because of Celliers looks and the ideal he sees in him. The attraction might indeed me one-sided. You get the feeling that Celliers is too far away from life for something banal as romantic feeling toward anyone (it is strange that as a man of his status and looks he is not married). He is fully aware of Yonoi's though as it seems. There is a scene in the book where Celliers reads a novel and asks Lawrence why some of the pages are missing. Lawrence explains that the Japanese rip out all the pages that contain kissing scenes because "even the most chaste kiss on the cheek in public is regarded as the most perverse and sexual thing in their culture".
　　
　　And now, knowing that, you can imagine that Celliers was fully aware of what he did to Yonoi with those "harmless" kisses. He could have raped Yonoi in public, it wouldn't have made much of a difference. And what made the scene even more revealing was that Yonoi didn't pull away. Celliers did what he had to do and he used Yonoi's weakness for him against him.
　　
　　But since you were only talking about the movie.. Yonoi's character was based on Japanese author Yukio Mishima (The title song of the movie, 'Forbidden Colours' refers to Mishima's book of the same name. It is also a Japanese term for.. well, being homosexual), who was tortured by his homosexuality and flet into his obsession with the military and samurai. He committed public suicide with a sword. And having been raised in the strict codex of the samurai himself, Oshima seems to be fascinated by the topic of homosexuality in this environments. His later movie Gohatto can be seen as a sequel to the thought he developed in Mr Lawrence. How love or sexual desire can cause this strict and cold system to collaps just because it makes Yonoi, in that case, act on his very personal motives, because it turned him into an individual. Maybe he would have been even more explict than he already was but given this movie is almost 25 years old it is already quite bold.
　　
　　Btw, in the book Yonoi survives. He works in a women's prison (degrading and meant as a punishment) after what happened at the camp with Celliers and gets accused of abusing the women because they find the lock of Cellier's hair at him and at first assume it is a woman's hair. Later he returnes home and desposites the lock of hair in the shrine of ancestors.
　　
　　As for the Korean and Dutch soldier, I think they are some kind of a more extreme version of Yonoi and Celliers, just less controlled and such destroyed much quicker. They just gave in to their desires (the Dutch guy didn't even try to resist and later he bites off his tongue when the Korean soldier is executed. More than obvious the feeling were not one-sided).这是荷兰网友的评论
　　
　　
　　我不是学英语的，那位高手能给翻译下，十分感激

2009-04-27 00:42:09 stein

　　好想看一下

2009-05-01 23:35:21 打碗碗花 (星星不要沉默)

　　……晕，看英文头大的说~：（

2009-05-06 16:20:14 小锡兵 (我们看海去)

　　mark。。。

2009-05-12 01:00:45 NOODLE N NUTS (我做什么决定了我是什么)

　　"even the most chaste kiss on the cheek in public is regarded as the most perverse and sexual thing in their culture".
　　原来如此！

2009-05-14 10:54:41 lilylee

　　荷兰影迷认为电影中的YONOI是大岛渚在影射三岛由纪夫？

2009-05-22 16:45:39 lilylee

　　2009-03-29 09:39:54 妖精伤人　　版本龙一对大包有断臂情节是可以肯定的，而大包吻了龙一我认为是此前他回忆自己的青年时期有了忏悔，把这种情感释放到对战争完全被动的龙一身上，大包的弟弟在回忆中一直没长大，我想这是不是大包人格分裂造成的，他弟弟压根不存在。
　　_____________________________________________________________
　　他弟弟肯定是存在的啊，很多人都怀疑Yonoi跟弟弟到底有什么关系，我看到原著里面有一段话，或许可以解释。我英文太一般，怕翻译得不得要领，所以直接上原文，大家看看：
　　One has said that there is"no greater love thanthat a man should lay down his life for his friends".Yet is it not ,perhaps,as great a love that a man shuould live his life for his enemies,feeding their enmity of him without ever himself becoming an enemy until at last enmity has had surfeit and his enemies are free to discover the real meaning of their terrible hunger-just as my brother provoked and endured my strange hostility without ever becoming to me?
　　
　　

2009-06-07 16:45:37 titaic

　　He could have raped Yonoi in public, it wouldn't have made much of a difference.
　　
　　望天...
　　居然这么严重！

2009-07-18 23:33:02 [已注销]

　　英語~~~

2009-07-26 14:54:02 [已注销]

　　荷兰那个人的大意。
　　1.书里，在法庭上两人有更多的互动。两人有惺惺相惜之感。
　　2.坂本龙一自身深受武士道的熏染，对大卫在相惜的同时也有不理解的情绪。简单说就是集体化武士道精神面对个人化的自由。
　　3.坂本龙一对大卫应该是单恋- - 大卫明白他对自己的感情，同时他因为看一本书明白了对日本人来说贴面亲两下无异于当众强奸- -
　　4.坂本最后因为大卫那个当众亲吻被罚去了女监，结果因那撮儿头发被误认为猥亵女囚犯。回家都把头发送到家祠。
　　
　　
　　
　　基于以上。。。。大岛渚的深意就是纪律或武士道与个人情欲相碰撞而产生的矛盾。
　　
　　而御法度一片是这个主题思想的进一步探讨。

2009-07-26 14:54:44 [已注销]

　　回家后- -

2009-07-26 15:11:13 [已注销]

　　One has said that there is"no greater love thanthat a man should lay down his life for his friends".Yet is it not ,perhaps,as great a love that a man shuould live his life for his enemies,feeding their enmity of him without ever himself becoming an enemy until at last enmity has had surfeit and his enemies are free to discover the real meaning of their terrible hunger-just as my brother provoked and endured my strange hostility without ever becoming to me?
　　
　　
　　
　　根据这段，那么大卫在与坂本的关系中是作为他与弟弟关系中弟弟的角色出现，实践那最伟大的爱——对敌人的爱。

2009-12-25 19:53:15 楽┋｜︴┇︳┆

　　额的娘啊，英语太烂的人路过......

2010-01-01 22:33:11 [已注销]

　　又一个因为曲子而寻找这部电影的飘过。。
　　
　　whatever。。好片子不怕晚。

2010-02-03 22:42:42 lilylee

　　One has said that there is"no greater love thanthat a man should lay down his life for his friends".Yet is it not ,perhaps,as great a love that a man shuould live his life for his enemies,feeding their enmity of him without ever himself becoming an enemy until at last enmity has had surfeit and his enemies are free to discover the real meaning of their terrible hunger-just as my brother provoked and endured my strange hostility without ever becoming to me?
　　　　
　　　　
　　　　
　　　　根据这段，那么大卫在与坂本的关系中是作为他与弟弟关系中弟弟的角色出现，实践那最伟大的爱——对敌人的爱。
　　___________________________________________________
　　我的理解也差不多也就是这个意思

2010-11-07 10:24:48 elle

　　果然还是联系上了三岛由纪夫了.

2011-06-05 20:07:13 S。R

　　我是先知道电影，后知道音乐的。我找了很久的视频地址，今天终于找到了，还是英文字幕的。于是我磕磕绊绊算是看完了，感慨万千，刚写完一篇长评。不知道为什么，我总觉得Jack对世野景的感情完全不是爱情，于是我决定去看看书。我觉得那个荷兰网友说的太好了，之前我单纯在思考Jack为什么要吻世野景，现在才知道原来那一吻影响这么大啊。嗯，总之，去看书吧！